The Thursday Blog: Where’s Your Mosque? Edition

It would be nearly impossible not to have heard about the proposed “Park 51” mosque and community center that is trying to get itself build at GROUND ZERO in New York, where the Twin Towers fell. Formally named the Cordoba House after the primary party pushing this beast along, the Cordoba Initiative, the proposed mosque has the right wing of the nation in a twist, as the idea of a thirteen story muslim house of prayer within sight of our greatest modern tragedy gives them the faints. This land is considered by many to be sacred and the sacrifice of the people there to be revered.*

Although America was founded by people fleeing religious persecution, opponents of the mosque see no daylight between religious freedom and preventing the Cordoba House from happening. This is because the terrorists were possibly all muslim. I say possibly only because they were all engaged in an awful lot of non-islamic-approved behavior just before taking their final flights. Probably they just figured that god (yes, the same god all Christians worship) would give them a pass on all the beer and porn since they were gonna go blow up some of his other favorite people in a couple of weeks. I find this line of reasoning suspect though, since all the terrorists were definitely wearing pants, and we haven’t done anything about the jeans for sale across the street from the actual site of the downed towers that have “A New York Firefighter Saved My Butt!” stitched into the back pocket. (Okay, I made that one up, but I am worried someone will make a connection between terrorism and porn.)

It’s possible that there would be less hullabaloo if one of the proposed investors** wasn’t Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal. Alwaleed (in my head it sounds like Allyweed) was sort of outed on FOX News as a “backer” of the mosque because of his shadowy connections with Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, a self confessed activist who’s nefarious goal is to improve relations between the “Moslem world and the West”, and also for attempting to give New York $10,000,000 to help defray to costs of putting New York back together after the events of 9/11. A gift that Mayor Rudy Giuliani heroically refused.

FOX News failed to mention Prince Alwaleed by name however, instead only referring to the Kingdom Holding Company.*** It is possible that they did not know his name, although they did know he gives money to the aforementioned evil peacenik Feisal Abdul Rauf. It is also possible that they were trying as hard as they could to avoid saying Prince Alwaleed’s name on the air since he also owns 2.3 billion dollars in stock in News Corp., FOX News Parent company.****

Personally I’m against all churches, mosques, temples, and synagogues, though I fear the FOX crowd may not be engaged in this struggle in the same spirit as I. While I think religion is foolish, I strongly believe that all Americans have the right to be as foolish as they want, and to waste their money in any way they see fit. Or even someone else’s money, freely given. I’m afraid that I see this as a case of being anti-moslem equating to being anti-American. And that, gentle readers, just makes me laugh.

* The Cordoba House is planned to take the place of an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory two blocks from GROUND ZERO. You can’t actually see it from there, since it is behind the “merchant zone” selling plastic tourist crap such as tiny American flags with GROUND ZERO printed on them, figurines of the towers, firefighters, terrorists, vinyl blow-up airliners, and bobble-head Osama bin-Ladens. There’s also a Burger King there, in case you get hungry buying T-shirts that say “I went to GROUND ZERO and all I got was somebody’s thighbone”. (I saw a photo of someone selling this T-shirt at GROUND ZERO years ago. I Googled it when I wrote this but sadly couldn’t find anything.)

** As of this writing, the Cordoba House has actually collected $18,000 (from internet donations) of the needed $100,000,000 required to begin the project. They have no permits, no architects, no engineers, and no blueprints. All they really have is a website.

*** Also known as the ALWALEED BIN TALAL FOUNDATION.

**** While FOX News slams the Cordoba House for not yet taking Alwaleed’s cash, they yadda yadda right over the fact that a portion of that cash comes from them. On the Daily Show Jon Stewart amusingly points out that the best way to block funding from the mosque is to stop watching FOX News.

63 Responses to The Thursday Blog: Where’s Your Mosque? Edition

  1. I can’t say I’ve been “following” this story, but it does seem to keep popping up. I’m all for the “mosque,” or as it’s actually being called, the cultural center. From what I’ve heard it’s only going to be one floor out of the thirteen that’s actually going to be used for religious gatherings. No doubt the other twelve will all be used to train terrorists and laugh at the Ground Zero site they can’t even see from there. I guess I can see where a lot of people don’t want this to happen as they have to have someone to hate, but for me it’s just people trying to express their beliefs and have a place to play basketball. Yeah, they’re supposed to have a basketball court. For the terrorists, no doubt.

  2. Personally, I say let them protest the Cordoba House. It make it easy to identify them so I can go back in time and spay and neuter their parents. 😈

    “The less you know…the more likely you’re Fox News viewer.”

    Someday someone should hack the Fox News web site so that it would play a certain station break announcement by Jon Lovitz, the voice actor of the title character of The Critic, a prime time cartoon that used to play on Fox, to wit:

    “You’re watching Fox! Shame on you.”

    I happen to know that sound clip is downloadable. :mrgreen:

  3. You know that, as a Canadian, I am without morals. In fact, every one of us is married to a gay man, and voting for ways to make us more and more communist.

    So this may sound a little odd.

    See, I support the building of a mosque. In fact, I fully support the idea that people should be able to worship how they like so long as it doesnt harm another. Seems the decent thing to do.

    Which is why I dont think they should build it there. What you say? Well, no.. Im not going to be all like “they are promoting terror.” Ugh. Of course not. What I am saying is that its ALSO the decent thing to do is to realize that may be some people could be a little uncomfortable with the idea, which goes back to “doing what you want do long as it doesnt hurt others.”

    If people dont want it there? Move it over a little. Not by much, just enough that conservative pricks can call it a victory and then go bother some one else.

    Really, though, what I think sould be done first? Why not ask a few troops, and a few victims of the families?

    Seems to me, if you have the victims of the families, and the troops that risked their lives in war say its ok, then show it to Glenn “why the fuck is God considered Benevolent and Im still allowed to breathe air?” Beck, what the fuck is he gunna do. Argue with THEM? Id like to see THAT showing.

    • Give ’em an inch they will take 1100 miles.

      There is a group opposed to the expansion of a mosque/culture center in Murfreesboro, TN. It has been there over 30 years and all the mosque wants to do is build a bigger facility for its growing congregation. 🙄

      I am with Kevin – since there is no god, no churches are needed. However, I also believe freedom is an infection and the best way (not saying safest) to make people “ill” is to let freedom ring.

      On a happier note – TIME FOR DRAGONCON!

    • “Really, though, what I think sould be done first? Why not ask a few troops, and a few victims of the families?”

      Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure that I heard something about families of 9/11 victims being on-board with opposing the cultural center on NPR last week.

    • You’re right of course, building that mosque would decapitate countless American soldiers on prime time national television and go back in time to murder three presidents before they were even elected! It absolutely will harm America when it releases nerve gas clouds big enough to kill every invertebrate on Earth.
      Er, no, wait a minute… that’s bullshit! Seriously, what kind of harm are you folks expecting from this thing? That it will transform into a giant robot and stomp downtown NY like Godzilla? If Glenn Beck weeping about it is all the tangible harm you can point to then fuck those jokers and build it.
      As an atheist and long-time observer of the public policy battles waged in Canada to wean people of their cigarette addictions I have to say that I am sympathetic to Kevin’s point about religion being a social ill that needs positive public policy steps to combat it but preventing them from building their mosque is prohibition and makes it seem cooler in the minds of the rebellious, impressionable youth.
      As far as the right-wing media’s hyperventilation about the topic all that needs to be said about that is that they make a profit out of scaremongering about anything they can get people to listen to them scream about: It’s all about the TV ratings, book deals and Cato Institute sponsorships and shit like that. If you pay attention to that shit you’re a chump.

  4. I would feel more sympathy about the plight of the mosque if the same people who are pushing for its reconstruction were not blocking the RECONSTRUCTION of the St Nicholas Greek Orthodox church. This was the church that was destroyed in 2001 when one of the buildings collapsed on it. Its funny that the same people who worry about perceived religious intolerance, or whatever-the-hell other reason they want to give to throw their support behind the mosque being built, either ignore, conveniently forget, or have never heard the other story.

    • This take is more than a little disingenuous. Few people are pushing for the construction of the Park51 community center (not mosque) – most are simply saying that it shouldn’t be blocked on the grounds of religious affiliation. It’s up to Rauf and his supporters to get the means to do so. If they can’t, they can’t. In other words, supporting their right to build it doesn’t mean we support doing so. Personally, I’m indifferent to whether it actually happens or not.

      As for St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox church – they had and still have the right to rebuild on their original site. But they want a larger site to build (not rebuild) a larger church. This is a zoning dispute having to do with the desire of the Port Authority not to give up such a large chunk of real estate – it has nothing to do with the faith of the church. You may or may not favor their request for a new site, but there’s no evidence that the decision to deny the site was based on discriminatory intent. If some turns up, I’ll be glad to push for their right to build. Otherwise the two cases are apples and oranges.

      Kevin, that they shouldn’t have even tried to build the center isn’t as obvious as you might think. They have plenty of local support from the community most affected (New York City), and ran their plans past a lot of people – nobody objected including a number of conservatives. It was a non-issue until an out-of-state demagogue got onto Twitter and realized how easy it would be to gin up some press with a little well timed xenophobia.

  5. The nub of this is the idiots who believe “most terrorists are muslim, therefore most muslims are terrorists.” And most of those idiots are ultra-conservative Christians. I’m pretty sure many more innocent people have been killed in the name of Christianity since it’s inception than in the name of Islam, and while both religions mostly consist of their advocates who preach peace and tolerance, somehow the tiny minority of those Islamists preaching violence and hate are treated as representative of their religion as a whole, but the tiny minority of Christians preaching such values are treated as unpleasant eccentrics who aren’t really Christians at all. If they are ever mentioned at all. Which they often aren’t.

    We in Britain still remember the loving support that the IRA received from a surprisingly large number of American sympathisers.

  6. Actually the “Cordoba Project” is a reference to a mosque that was built in Cordoba, spain, to commemorate muslim conquest of the area. It’s planned commemoration date is the tenth anniversery date of the fall of the World Trade Center towers.

    Nope…no disturbing “Victory/trophy Mosque” connotations there, nosirree.

      • Glenn Beck actually..mister “Look, I found a link on the internet to some website that contradicts your facts” – you do know that you can find websites that “prove” that aliens blew up the trade towers, right? just because you find it on the Internet doesn’t make it true.

      • What’s that got to do with the commemoration date being the tenth anniversary?

        I didn’t say anything about the Cordoba mosque being buit on top of a christian church…I said that it was a symbol of Muslim conquest of the area. If you’re going to twist my words, at least twist the ones I actually used, AC.

        And get it right…I listen to Glenn Beck, not Rash Windbaugh.

        • First up, I didn’t even reference your words so it is impossible for me to have twisted them. I attacked your ignorance, attributing it to you uncritically accepting a misreading of history from one of America’s right wing propagandists. Apparently I guessed the wrong source of propaganda as the origin of your ignorance. That said, does a distinction between Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck really matter?
          I didn’t say anything about the original Cordoba mosque, which was built to commemorate a Muslim conquest: Specifically it was built as a reference to conquest over other Muslims.
          The history you seem to be ignorant of is that Cordoba as a general historical reference refers to a major urban centre of learning in which Jewish people were afforded more rights and protections than they were in Christian kingdoms at the time and where many Christian scholars trained–including at least one pope. How is a reference to a historical place of interfaith learning a symbol of Muslim conquest exactly?

          • Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to…you linked the Cordoba mosque article, which is definitely “referencing” it…

            And I’m oh-so-sure that the Immam who wants Sharia Law in America is Oh-so-Tolerant of Jews.

            Yah, nothing bad about stoning women to death for being seen with a man they’re not married to at all, nosir!

            At least THIS seed of Sharia-complience in the US got overturned: http://www.secularnewsdaily.com/2010/07/28/nj-judge-oks-rape-of-wife-by-muslim-citing-religious-belief-overturned-on-appeal/

            • Just to jump back in, the imam In question is the head of the Sharia Project, which is an organization dedicated to promoting education, tolerance, and peace between all faiths. He has worked for decades alongside Jews and Christians and is tremendously well liked and respected by the people who actually know him.

              I’m sure you could find an imam who is not tolerant of Jews, but this would not be your guy.

            • Alright, here’s the quote I’m responding to then: ‘Actually the “Cordoba Project” is a reference to a mosque that was built in Cordoba, spain, to commemorate muslim conquest of the area.’
              No, it isn’t, it’s a reference to an entire city of a thousand years ago which had unusual tolerance and respect for its minority Jewish and Christian populations for any city ruled under a monotheistic religion at the time. This city was a hub of scholarship in which legendary Christian and Jewish scholars studied.

              I’ll agree with you that religious fundamentalism should be something we run ads against, “Just say no to fundamentalist polygamy!” and such, but Islam as a religion has been used as an excuse for far fewer murders than Christianity has to date.

              • Don’t worry, they’re starting to catch up. Also, there are just so many unreported deaths nowadays that I’m sure they’re catching up even faster than you think.

                • Do you count the ones in Africa? I’d have to look at some UN statistics to double-check but I think that if we count the ones in Africa the Christians are still adding to their lead.

                  • The Christians might be adding, but the Muslims are gaining. At this rate they’ll catch up someday.
                    Say, wanna start a betting pool on how much time it takes them and which country/organization claims the prize?

                    Ugh, by your replies you sound like you think I’m defending Christianity or something. Gross.

                    • You’ve claimed to be Israeli before, I just think you’re wrong about Muslims being a bigger threat to Israel than Christians. For example, there is the fact that apocalyptic American Christianity keeps trying to support militant Zionism and greater Israel as a means of speeding up the arrival of The Rapture. When you’ve got folks like those for friends who needs enemies?

                    • Let’s examine AC’s statement that Christians are a bigger threat to Isreal than Muslims. Exactly which Christians are threatening to annihilate Isreal, because there are plenty of lunatic Muslims that are doing so, and not just random people, but the LEADERS of muslim countries who have the political power to act on their threats (or have you never heard of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, AC?)

                    • Elfguy: Dude, if it weren’t for decades of American military support the state of Israel would’ve probably folded up and the various settlers would’ve hid out in various first-world countries by now. Without Israel continuing to exist Palestinians simply could not be shooting rockets at Israelis.
                      Feel free to take the position that the existence of modern Israel is a good thing–I’m not sure either way–but without the existence of Israel we wouldn’t keep getting annoying updates in the not-news every time a soldier, a settler, a suicide bomber or a large number of Palestinian refugees over there dies.
                      I’m done for the night, g’night.

    • I heard that, but I couldn’t find any non-ranty super-right wing screechers telling me what the name means to Muslims. Not saying it doesn’t meant that, only that there were no Muslims who seemed to know about it.

  7. While I approve of religious worship etc, like Caveman I can see some, a lot in fact, people being disturbed by it.
    Kevin, you mock those terrorists’ Islamic beliefs and devotion because they apparently sinned a bit before they died, and while that’s just hypocritical of them, just like a priest molesting kids, it’s not them who are in the center of it- it’s their cause.
    It’s like saying Hitler(yes, here he is again) wasn’t a true Nazi because he was so fucked up, non-Aryan-looking(or most of the senior staff for that matter) etc. It’s not about the person doing it, at whose expense you can laugh at and point to how silly and hypocritical they are, it’s all about the cause.
    They did it for Islamic dominance, or whatever you want to call it, and quite a lot of Muslims worldwide really liked that, to put things mildly. So this would be quite disturbing for some, especially victims’ families.

    That being said, I’m not against a mosque there, but I think instead of doing independent buildings and saying how peaceful they are they should just make a pan-religious center under “one roof”. That way it’s more of an area dedicated to everyone’s personal sky-daddy where people can go and feel better.
    Kinda like the UN, only with less terrorists(Joke/Crying time: United Nations Human Rights Council. What, these are the countries guarding human-rights in the world?).

    On a side note, I liked your use of language in the very first sentence:
    1. The mosque is trying to build itself, no one is responsible for building or supporting it. The mosque is of course an inanimate object and thus has no intentions of its own.
    2. The towers fell. My, what a terrible natural disaster. They really should’ve built them better if they collapsed for no reason.

    Now both parts invoke passivity- The mosque is an independent creation with no people standing behind it, and the towers just fell by themselves, with no people causing it(except the builders perhaps?).

    IDK if that was intentional, Kevin, but I’d like to point out this is what propaganda writers, just like your beloved Fox News, like to do.

    • And many current-day propagandists try to attack positions and topics by associating them with Nazi atrocities.

      Seriously, has everybody forgotten that the CIA sponsored Bin Laden fighting against the USSR in Afghanistan, and thus should have been responsible for his demobilization afterwards? Oops! The problem there is runaway American foreign policy that touched back down in America and anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. Do your reading on the corrupt house of Saud, the embarrassing backwards regime in Saudi Arabia and how it is being kept going by US military aid. Then come back later when you actually know where Bin Laden came from and what he did before ordering the 9/11 strikes.

      • Thanks, but I know where Bin Laden came from and who sponsored him like an idiot, kinda like the USSR sponsored almost all the middle-east and now enjoys Islamic Fun armed with weapons they gave their comrade countries.
        I also know about Saudi Arabia being shit, and you might be surprised to know, but I don’t particularly like them or think they’re benevolent, and think it’s stupid of the USA to support them(or Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Pakistan, Iran in the past and others I forgot or don’t know of) so much. But then again, they could be the lesser of two evils, who knows.
        So if I understood you correctly the USA should just rule by themselves in those places or leave the shitty regimes to crumble and be replaced by even shittier regimes, now armed with the previous regime’s US-provided toys.

        My mention of Hitler was to demonstrate how a person who was famously really very different from the ideals he pushed around still held and is recognized with those ideals, so being a hypocrite doesn’t change that.
        I could mention Kim Jong-il or other fun guys like Fidel Castro who live in luxury and suppress their peoples while their ideology is supposed to be about equality and comradeship.

      • To add another one to the list of “helping crazy people kill you”, IIRC Israel actually helped the Hamas when they first started in hopes it’ll both weaken the PLO-based terrorists and prove a better partner for peace(because crazy Muslim Arabs are so much better than crazy secular Arabs, according to their twisted logic).
        Israel has also supplied many weapons to the “Palestinian Authority” from the mid-90’s onward for the use of its “police” forces, and surprise surprise, they used it to murder people. Still some urge to support them because they’re such great partners for peace.
        I would also like to mention the many Arab MP’s from, among others, Arab parties that just about say they want Israel to cease to exist, who regularly support terrorists. There have been some who actually spied for terrorists and helped them. And years after they still receive pensions as MP’s(though the last one’s more of a bureaucratic stupidity than a political one).

        So, Anon, I know all too well about how the USA and some Israeli peace-crazed lunatics who can’t see what’s in front of them help those who want to kill them. There’s a saying here that goes “he’s being pissed on and thinks it’s just rain”.

        Frankly I’ve lost hope for the continued existence of this country, and I’m just waiting for it to burn down.
        I don’t bother to vote anymore, and while I’m still getting riled up about this I don’t believe it matters anymore.
        Israel has lost and will just crumble sooner or later if nothing changes.
        So fuck it all, let it burn, let the people burn, let the world burn.

        • Reference to NAZI doctrines and Hitler in a topic in which those are not at issue is out of line and if we were playing by Godwin’s Law rules you would be obligated to admit you’ve lost.
          The Israeli peacenik versus militant settler divide is a different topic I’m sure Kevin will get to eventually (we evidently disagree there too).
          The substance of my point was that Osama Bin Laden was a US terrorism asset who went off the program because he was pissed off at American abandonment of their promises to help reestablish Afghanistan after the war, and was further pissed off by their other dicking around in the holy land (countries with Mecca and Jerusalem in them) and Islamic countries in general. Blaming his actions on an entire religion is specious at best just like blaming Christianity for snipers who shoot gynecologists in America–thou shalt not kill is pretty hard to mix up and we’re dealing with assholes spewing excuses for their violent obsessions and actions in both cases.
          The sympathy of individuals who self-identify as followers of Islam to the agenda of Osama Bin Laden is worth treating in a geopolitical context but it’s not relevant to the question of if people who have full private citizen rights, property rights and zoning clearance to build a mosque should be allowed to.

          • OK, so I’ve lost. I’ll mention Fidel instead from now on, after all, he’s such a nice guy.
            The point was not, as is often the case(and to which you were referring by calling me a propagandist in the first line of your first reply), to make a comparison between those terrorists and the Nazis, but to give an example of a people widely known to have been quite outside their own ideals, but who are still always treated as holders of said ideals, without someone crying “but they don’t represent everyone else, they did this and that!”.

            I’m not so sure Mr Bin-Laden was such a pro-USA as you make him to be, who only became embittered by the evil USA’s betrayal and abandonment. He’s a religious lunatic whom the USA used in the past and forgot that such fanatics need a new enemy when the original is gone.

            I just love it when people try to soften up religions, like your “thou shalt not kill is pretty hard to mix up”.
            Have you even read the bible? Do you understand what that commandment is all about?
            It’s not a complete prohibition about killing people- this doesn’t apply to sinners who commit certain sins punishable by death.
            Abortion is murder, so if they follow the bible they’re justified in killing the murderers. They’re very much Christian and they’re very much still within their religious doctrine.
            Some people just don’t get it- they pick up that part and seem to forget that the bible’s filled with exceptions to that law.

            I’m not at all for it, but I’m just so sick and tired of people quoting that damned, stupid, useless commandment. There’re just so many things you’re supposed to die of in there that I’m surprised they even bothered putting that shit in.

            Judaism and its offshoots are murderous religions right there in their texts and anyone who wonders how a devout person could kill should really open the specific book and READ.

            • Okay, let me see if I understand your point:
              Because Osama Bin Laden and his followers, the folks who also claimed responsibility for the successful attacks on the New York World Trade Center, claim to be Muslim it is fair to treat Islam as specifically more suspect than other religions?
              Eh, it’s beyond my ambitions to sort this one out anyway. I just have difficulty not choking when people treat Christianity and Judaism as lesser problems than Islam.

              • I think some countries and part of their populations should be suspected because right now they’re producing quite a few terrorists/support them financially and politically.
                Right now Christianity on the whole, apart from Africa perhaps, is mostly benign. They might be pricks and really annoy, or they might even fight to restrict some of your rights, but they don’t have major organizations and extensive public and governmental support to kill you.

                The Jews are even quieter, frankly they’re just not as numerous or powerful enough(And some seem to want nothing more than ignore their ethnicity and either stay away or actively go against other Jews so as to seem non-Jewish) to try and do that much, apart from here, where they also annoy from time to time.

                Christians on the whole seem to have grown out of their “crazy stage”, while Muslims are mostly still there. Of course that’s also because there aren’t really that many devout Christians anyway, they’re mostly secular people who observe a few rights because it’s a tradition, just like most Jews aren’t religious.

                As you might’ve noticed, developing countries have more religiously devout societies, and unfortunately for Muslims, and the rest of us, most of their countries are located there, not to mention all the corrupt, dictatorial regimes.
                Islam isn’t the problem in itself, though it IS really fucked up, it’s the combination of all those things in the environment that makes lots of people there crazy and fanatical.

                • I’d disagree about Christianity having grown out of its crazy stage but talking about that long list of atrocities is boring so I’ll abandon the point aside from mentioning one acronym: WHISC
                  And I can’t be bothered to talk about globalism, poverty and modern post-colonial client dictatorships but suffice to say that the old saw about the rich being rich because they take from the poor applies between countries as well as between individual people. Iran and Mossadegh anybody?
                  You know what, screw it, g’night.

    • The mosque building itself was simply to evoke the impression that it’s having as much success as you would think a building would in creating itself, which ain’t much. It was played not for propaganda, but because it sounded kinda funny in my head.

      The towers did fall. That is a totally accurate statement. If I knock you in the head with a hammer and you fall down, you fell. While it is ALSO accurate to say that I knocked you down, once that fact is established we can move past it and get on to what happened after you fell. And I believe that knocked down the towers is a pretty well established fact for everyone here.

      I believe your beef comes from the fact that I used relatively neutral language, rather than inflammatory or leading vocabulary. I make no apology for that. My intent was not really to display a preference for either side’s argument, only to point out some stupid blunders. By asserting that my language promotes one side over the other, you remove context from the article and turn it into something it was not intended to be.

      • My comment about your specific use of language was not exactly an attack of your views, as I imagine you’re not celebrating the anniversary and wishing for more.
        It was more of an observation about the language some news sites use to shape the news to their views.
        The building building itself wasn’t high on my list, and frankly I still don’t get the joke you were trying to make.
        The “fell” is very neutral, and while in itself it’s not bad, with the first part it sounded worse.

        The example you gave, about saying I fell down, either by myself or after being knocked on the head, is exactly what I mean. Some news sites, and I mainly refer to all major Israeli outlets, use very neutral language and inflammatory language to reshape the news.

        Just now we had another such case, which is also why I got pissed off and mentioned it in relation to your writing, where they use passive verbs or special keywords to describe the attack on a civilian car killing 4 by brave Palestinian freedom fighters.

        They try to hide the identity of the perpetrators, they use language that diminishes and distances some people’s(who are yet again on “peace-talks” with the Israeli PM) responsibility for it.
        While talking of the same attack they downplay the role that the Palestinians have played(Like, IDK, committing it? ) and actually put most of the blame on some stupid rabbi who opened his mouth again to utter some crap, as he’s wont to do from time to time. So they’re saying the poor guys were actually provoked by him and spontaneously organized in just 2 days to pull off this attack(which would also beg the question, is this really the response that should be made, even if it was really all about him?), and not like it was designed to, IDK, ruin their political rival’s meeting in Washington(who’s also a sweet, innocent angel, according to the media).

        When something’s done by an Arab he’s codenamed to disguise his nationality, which is all well I’m certain, if it wasn’t for the fact that others’ nationalities and affiliations are highlighted in the same circumstances, or just being lied about.
        But that’s not to say it’s only about Arabs- this is about anyone whom the media likes and wants to protect, and it goes the other way around too.

        It’s kinda hard to explain all this without examples, but they’re all in Hebrew.

  8. OK, Muslems and Christians do not, I mean absolutely NOT, worship the same God. The Christian God is one of peace, non-violence, and love for everyone. Allah and the Qur’an are the exact opposite. Copy and paste this video, it is very informative.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

    Some people always like to bring up the Crusades and the Inquisition as arguments, but realize this: When a great leader follows the Bible, he accomplishes great things, when he deviates from the Bible is when he fails and it’s always this failing that he’s remembered for. Not for following the Bible, but for NOT following the Bible. Religion didn’t fail man, man failed religion and both men and religion paid for it. If you are old enough, think of Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker and how their failings hurt religion as a whole.

    Suffice it to say, Islam and Christianity are no where near the same. Period.

    • Hey, do you observe the Sabbath? If not I’m well within my rights as a devout follower of the bible to stone you to death.
      Also if you’ve ever been to a church, worshiped Jesus and worshiped his icon(that cross-thingy) in any way.

      I don’t want to fail the bible and God, after all. 😉

      • No where in the Bible does it say you must be stoned to death for not observing the Sabbath. If you read it, you will see Jesus himself calling church leader hypocrites for using the “no work during Sabbath” to oppress people. And, no, we don’t worship those wooden/plastic crosses or the paintings on the wall or whatever. They don’t have any power whatsoever. We know this. And now, so do you.

    • “The Christian God is one of peace, non-violence, and love for everyone” have you even read the first half of the bible? If you don’t follow God’s way he kills you, then has you tortured for eternity in a place so horrible that the most inhospitable places humans have found uses it’s name as a descriptor, “hellish”.

      The Jewish religion produced a book. The Christian and Muslim religions both took that book and added their own part 2 to it. This means they either all share the same god, (although they disagree on a lot of what he said.) Or he cloned himself and each religion got one of the clones. While a being that powerful would probably be able to do a tiny thing like cloning himself, don’t you think it’s more likely humans just screwed up writing down the story? We tend to do that a lot, just take a look at witness reports for crimes, 5 different people seeing a crime will all say the perpetrator had a different build, (wieght, height) from each other. And then there is the whole, no other gods before me commandment making he seem a tad jealous, so cloning is even more unlikely.

      • Check again. Click on the link and watch whole thing, they give a real quick history of the Qur’an. Not only that, Mohamed was born after the time of Christ and since he wrote the whole Qur’an, he lists Christians as enemies to be hated. If you check the history a bit further, he even tried to make himself out to be the second Christ saying he received all these revelations from an Archangel. He was found out and was shunned, this is where the second half of the Qur’an comes from. This second half shows his vindictive and hateful side when he didn’t get his way.

        True, the Old Testament does have many wiping away of people who were against the Jews, but that was the whole purpose of Jesus, to graft in everyone else to the promise of Heaven. One could argue that cloning was exactly what he did while inseminating Mary (and don’t start the “he raped a virgin” bull, it’s been done to death). Perhaps that is why there are 4 accounts of Jesus in the New Testament, few variations, but essentially the same. Sure he’s a jealous God, he admits it. He also holds the keys to Heaven. A fair trade, I think. Would you really like to take your chances with something less?

        • Sorry David. Video aside, you’re simply wrong. Even if Muhammad did try to pass himself off as the second coming, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism still worship the same tyrannical, violent, and childish sky god. Even if Muhammad did hate the Christians, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism still worship the same tyrannical, violent, and childish sky god. If your argument is that this makes no sense… well I certainly agree with you. But it’s religion. None of it makes any sense. If it did it’d be science instead.

          Please believe that I am not picking on you, and in this one rare instance I’m not even trying to make fun of anyone. But these are the truths of the matter.

          • What truth? You said “if” four times. “If” is not truth. You made no definite statement except the one that you are not picking on anyone. Seriously, so many of the counter arguments I read here are based on half truths, convenient truths, and outright uninformed conclusions. All I am asking is that you do some research, not just at atheist or anti-religion sites, but see what the other side has to say. Become truly informed. You might be surprised by the results. Just remember one thing, the man that says, “I know all I need to know and there’s nothing else for me to learn,” is the greatest idiot in the world.

    • “The Christian God is one of peace, non-violence, and love for everyone.”

      The what now? 😐
      Seriously. Have you actually ever read the Bible? And all the official Church doctrine added during the past 2000 years? People like i.e. the Gnostics were punished as heretics for deviating from Church doctrine, wars haven been fought over details like the definition of the Trinity.

      I think you’re confusing the rabbi Jesus’s teachings (or what was written down decades and centuries later as supposedly having been said by him, if he actually existed, which isn’t proven) with the deity described in both the Old and New Testament. Especially the Old Testament. Yikes.

      A god does not exist without its religion. And religion is defined by its preachers and followers. Therefore, pretending that all the not-longer-politically-correct parts of the Bible and in Church doctrine and the nasty deeds done in God’s name throughout Christian history somehow do not count because you say so, because you prefer to define them away and label the people who committed them as “no true Christians” (although they certainly thought they were) is not just cherry-picking but blatant hypocrisy.

      • Forget about “cherry-picking” and “hypocrisy”, it’s much worse than that- it’s sacrilege and blasphemy!
        By discarding some of God’s own commandments and laws he’s a heretic and deserves to die! Kill him! Kill the infidel! 👿

        Either you follow all of God’s commandments and live, or you follow non/part-of and die.

      • First off, never think the Catholic Church has the final say on Christianity. They are too full of bureaucracy and history to be trusted entirely, in my opinion. It is the reason other denominations exist. Starting with Martin Luthor, John Calvin, John Wesley, on and on and on. The all saw the corruption and hypocrisy that Jesus himself spoke against and decided to follow the Biblical teachings as they were printed. Like I said before, it’s only when those religious leaders fail to follow Biblical teachings that they are immortalized. Bad news makes good press.

        Try looking at the leaders now. The spread and growth of communication technology has brought leaders of Christian denominations together and realized, they all preach the same message, “The way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ,” and all the differences between the denominations are just bells and whistles. Some people respond better to a Bible thumping shouter while others respond to a quiet explanation of the Word. Like they say, “We have an app for that.”

        • David, no one has the final word on Christianity. No one can agree what it means, and completely earnest people have been crossing purposes over what god’s intentions are since the whole thing started. Even you can only tell us what it means to you, and the least accomplished of us here… yourself included… can likely find half a dozen refutations of any claim you might make on Christianity without even leaving the confines of the bible, much less making reference to the doctrines of any particular church.

          In order to believe, you must cherry pick. There is simply too much contradictory information. Should I let strangers rape my daughter and wife while I chat in the living room, or is that bad?

          • You are right, there is cherry picking among the denominations. Some may put more importance on speaking in tongues, others on the baptism in water, but they all have the same central message, “Jesus is the path to Heaven.” Don’t believe me? Take the time to watch an episode or two of “Ask the Pastor” on one of the cable religious channels. They have 4 to 5 pastors from various denominations and people call in their questions. Invariably, they agree. No matter what the question is, they always agree. The Bible is not so wishy-washy as you make it out to be. Study it some more, you will see the message is clear. Be careful, sometimes the stories there are put there as warnings, not examples. So, if you find passages that don’t seem clear or seem to contradict another passage, don’t just stop and say, “That’s f@cked.” Do more research or find someone who knows and can explain it clearly. The Bible is the only religious book that can interpret itself.

            No, you are well within your rights to kill the rapist. If I shocked you by saying that, look it up. Here’s a hint. The first 5 books of the bible go into detail of explaining the Ten Commandments. In particular, deeper research into the Commandment against murder does give you license to kill in defense of home and family, as part of an army in time of war, and even government sanctioned capital punishment.

  9. You know what are better than Mosques?

    Tits.

    They should build some giant tits in that space instead. That would totally bring people closer together.

    • Blasphemy!

      They should put giant penises instead.

      Oh, wait, the city’s already choke-full of giant, metal&glass penises.

      We need more!

    • :mrgreen: That would make for an interesting skyline.
      What do we womenfolk get to look at, though?

      If you’re already constructing a building with a dome-shaped roof, shouldn’t it be easy to add a nipple?
      But then the building would be censored in the USA (or at least be PG-rated) unless it’s covered up, and only Europeans would be allowed to view it…

        • I guess they’re not phallic enough for her. To be fair most dicks are considerably less reflective, differently coloured and slightly differently shaped than your typical skyscraper.

          • Yea, but you try and design one to looks closer to what you wish/imagine your penis is like and still get that contract.
            Even architects have to make some compromises in that area.

            BTW, my building’s taller, thicker and more hi-tech than yours. Though I’m not sure what its huge antenna is supposed to symbolize.